Smile Politely. Speak Directly. A Champaign-Urbana Culture Blog

Fair is fair. Same goes here.

Good bands, bad journalism.

The reason why the above doesn't make any sense is that the 217.com removed my comment from their piece on Santa because I pointed out an embarrassing conflict of interest: The producer of the site also does their press/publicity. They didn't even have enough savvy to obscure it through circuitous back-scratching, bless them. Noobs.

Say, are there any conflicts of interest at smilepolitely.com? Or does it just not happen to bother anyone?

"The folks at the Canopy Club local music."

Is the missing word, by any chance, "use"?

"The producer of the site also does their press/publicity. They didn't even have enough savvy to obscure it through circuitous back-scratching, bless them... Say, are there any conflicts of interest at smilepolitely.com? Or does it just not happen to bother anyone?"

Conflicts of interest are kinda business as usual in the sucky Seth Fein-run music promo/writing/managing world that he decided to cast upon CU.

Does it bother people? Yeah. It does. A whole lot.

Seth has this (heh) local "media outlet", does local booking for the Canopy club (is that mentioned in this site much?), and manages bands that he, for years, has shamelessly promoted through his poorly disguised "music writing" pr crap.

Can't wait until he brings back the boy bands!

Thanks for catching the omitted word, Se. Fixed — and apologies to our readers for the slip-up.

To the others, collectively: Of course, there is a member of our editorial staff with affiliations with the Canopy, just as our collective editorial and writing team has affiliations with a wide range of employers, venues, teams, projects, artists, churches, political organizations, and more. The key to avoiding conflict of interest — as we see it, at least — is to keep those with the affiliation off of the affiliated topics, and to ensure that decisions made on the editorial side are neither swayed nor colored by these affiliations. In other words, your concern is quite valid, and one that we frequently consider. We appreciate the feedback.

Since when is putting yourself in a position to promote your livelihood, “shamelessly” or otherwise, a conflict of interest? He’s doing what he does. Booking shows, promoting shows and writing sometimes outlandish shit! At least hes bringing acts to town. With the exception of a few others (Ward, Mike I, Mike A ect.) nobody is doing much else. Promoting is a necessary part of getting bands to play here, and yes, make money. Can’t fault anyone there. If you don’t like it, try booking your own show, and promote it anyway you like…..

And by the way, Seth has never booked my band…..Im just sayin.

who cares about conflict of interest? with a town as small as champaign everyone has some sort of affiliation with something. and it's a blog about music, food, entertainment, etc. it's not like they are writing about life saving medical news. don't like the blog? don't read it. some people just like to complain. maybe that's why most of the local music sucks... people up in here bitching instead of writing good songs.

Chip,

I see you have managed to troll your way over to smilepolitely. I figured you would. Here's the deal:

If you had any sense at all you would have considered the fact that both Elle and Seth promote many other bands besides the ones that the217, Canopy Club, or Nicodemus are associated with. Even if they didn't, there is NOTHING wrong with promoting bands here in CU!

Our community is small, and if you are at all associated with the local music you know that everyone knows everyone on some level. It would be stupid for a site like smilepolitely not to endorse Canopy CLub shows... they are a news outlet for CU.

To Defend Elle:

Since she has taken over at the217, the site has gone all-out developing new ways to promote ALL local musicians: Band of the Week, Interviews, Local Music Directory, Show Reviews, and my own Local Artist Profiles. Yes, Elle is the publicity liaison for Santa, consequently I put her contact information on the profile I wrote. Elle did not. In fact, Elle has no say in what goes on my blog. That being said, I removed your comment because you are clearly a douche with nothing better to do. If you had taken an extra 30 seconds to look around even just my blog you would see that I have been interviewing a diverse set of bands not connected to Elle in any way: Elsinore, Zmick, World's First Flying Machine. I plan on continuing the Local Artist Profiles with many more bands, regardless of their affiliation to ANYONE.

To Defend Seth:

Let's face it, this guy has a lot of control over what gets played around here, but he does a damn good job and has an ear. Look at the bands he signs to Nicodemus. I'm glad he brings Nicodemus bands to the Canopy Club. Dark Meat was awesome a couple weeks ago. Headlights are the darlings of CU! Get over yourself man, Seth is a professional with jobs to do, and more power to him if those jobs overlap.

Your complaints are ridiculous. Get a life, stop trolling.

Amen.

If you want to talk smack about folks in the scene like my brother, Seth, please get some balls and post your real name so we know who you are.

In case you can't read the name listed above, this is Mike Armintrout. You can reach me at the Canopy Club almost anytime or via e-mail at mikea@jaytv.com

I'm always open to chat about why some of you are petty and don't even deserve to be part of this "scene".

There must be stricter punishments for people that are actually active members of the community. I believe we need to convene the council of People Who Do Nothing in Life But Troll the Internet and Tear Down What Other's Create While Contributing Nothing Significant Themselves. Only they are qualified to stop this blight of actually having wonderful live music shows in a town most bands otherwise wouldn't take time to spit on.

What I believe some of the antagonists in this comments thread are attempting to convey is perhaps their dissatisfaction with the lack of representation to bands that rock even just a little harder than 'indie' (heavier sound, whatever you want to call it). While their concerns may (or may not!) have merit, their delivery is abrasive.

Take note: I am not exempt from making abrasive comments. Some time ago I too fell into the trap of unbridled internet frustration-venting. MY ADVICE TO THE 'TROLLS': Stop! Make amends! Be the happy fellows you were born to be else you'll get nowhere and end up pissing off a lot of people.

THAT SAID, I did notice a distinct abundance of folk/indie bands on the 'Local Music' May 8th bill. Didn't see any hard rockers, though. But that's ok.

Trying to be objective here…

I wish that I could have seen Chip’s 217 post. Was he “slandering” the 217? If so, it might be better to offer criticisms instead of complaints. Is that what the bloggers are reacting negatively to?

From an outside perspective, it seems as though the opposing side is supporting Chip's "conflict of interest theory" in that they are all bloggers, blogging for CU online publications. They may be ganging up on Chip, directly defending their own publications and interests. Which is valid; the blogs are understandably important to them. Even though Chip may piss off the bloggers, he is entitled (by the nature of blogs) to publicly state his opinion. The fact that his post was erased from the 217 may jeopardize the integrity of the site. The 217 is a cool site, and I would hate to see it continue these trends. Do the bloggers have an unfair advantage here? Isn't the purpose of a blog to hear all sides?

I think it's great that we have blogs like 217.com and Smilepolitely. They're doing a great job covering CU culture, which is their purpose. Since CU is such a tight-knit community, yes it may be easy to touch on similar topics numerous times. Chip may be right to a certain extent. Some bands may get too much attention. But of course, “too much” is relative. If the readers feel the bands deserve the attention and are enjoying the coverage, then the bloggers are doing their jobs.

Thoughts?

Let’s all go to Murphy’s and settle this over a pint.

Chad Maier FTW. Kudos for "getting it." While the community is small, and that presents challenges, it is not a license to simply do away with pesky ethical considerations and instead run roughshod over fairness and integrity. Unless, of course, those concepts don't interest you. They're kind of a hobby of mine. I'm glad to hear avoiding conflicts of interest is something that you keep in mind at sp.com. Great! Keep it up.

It boils down to this: If one wants anyone to think one's site or the writing presented there is legit or respectable, one needs to exhibit a little understanding of journalistic ethics, that's all. I wanted to be fair to the217 and point out that smilepolitely.com shouldn't be held to some different standard. It appears that sp.com does a much better job with this than the folks at the217.com, for whom it seems to be not even so much as a consideration - and if you dare to challenge them, you are automatically a douche or a troll, regardless of the merits of your argument. "Unimpressive" is the kindest way I can describe that tactic.

Way to circle the wagons though!

Writing puff pieces for the businesses, organizations, or even bands you have business relationships with (as was the case at the217.com) turns your site into nothing more than an advertisement and undermines your credibility.

If that is ok with you, it is ok with me.

Matt - when you call me a douche or a troll, that's called an ad hominem attack. It's a common resort of those who feel intellectually cornered and cannot defend their positions with rational arguments. It's ok, I forgive you, heat of the moment, I know. Now, if you or Elle would care to address the real issue instead, that would be edifying - Is it ok to feature articles about the band you do publicity for, on the site you produce? I say no, unless of course, that's the method by which you "do publicity." What is your journalism professor's opinion? Do you fear having this discussion on your own site?

As some of the above comments will attest, smilepolitely is already at risk of being viewed as simply Seth's/Canopy's mouthpiece/promotional vehicle.

Again, if that is ok with you, it is ok with me.

The scooby-doo reveal: My name is John Hoeffleur. Perhaps you knew that already. Some of you I consider friends - I hope you understand why I felt the need to post under an assumed name. I had hoped it would make no difference in your responses.

Unfortunately, my desire to retain a tiny fucking shred of integrity and straight-shooting character outweighs my desire to be liked. Sorry, I guess I was born this way - it certainly hasn't made me popular or helped me succeed in the music biz. So if it makes me a troll, so be it.

love,
Chip

CHRIS Maier - sorry Chris. Sorry.

You know John, I'm not surprised it was you. It kind of hurts because I was planning on doing a Profile of The Beauty Shop this summer (I have a list I'm trying to get through). As I have said before when you took offense to a position I took, I like your band. I didn't delete that comment, because I was the only one it was directed at.

Hmmm... you know, I like Santa too. Does this mean I can't blog about them just because the producer of the site that hosts my blog (which I have complete creative sovereignty over) publicizes for them? Gee, I wonder what your stance would be if you had a publicity manager like Elle working for you... probably completely different.

As for my ad hominem attack - I used those words because they accurately describe your online behavior and general disposition. The day I'm intellectually cornered by a troll I will quit the internet. period.

Your last comment is both self-righteous and self-realizing. You are right, not many people like you. I don't think its because you hold on to your definition of integrity. I think its because you are in some sort of discontent with everything around you and so you try to find what's wrong in every picture. I hope you learn to be a little bit more positive.

Cheers,
Matt

"The day I'm intellectually cornered by a troll I will quit the internet. period."

ha ha ha. That's funny.

Hey Matt -- do you have any idea of how media works? Of how specific interests are forwarded through things far-reaching and seemingly benign like "news articles" and radio?

Some might argue that the line between journalism and p.r.-driven self promotion is thin and porous. Others expect better.

Now, I'm no John Hoeffler fan or non-fan, but I am willing to say that your take on his efforts is, at best, cowardly, and, at base, flat out wrong. For you to insult "Chip" for questioning the interests behind some of the efforts of smilepolitely and 217.com raises serious concerns for *your* legitimacy.

It takes a lot more hutzpha to call out the problems within structures than to sit by and both watch and benefit from the show (which he easily could). Especially when the show is supposed to be so darned fun and cool. But cui bono from the hyped sp and 217.com action, kiddo? How might conflict of interest arise when band managers/club staff are also the producers of music-related "news"? Should these things be mixed?

And this is not even talking sponsors.

I am sure I do not have to explain how such overlaps can be pointed to in causing ethical problems and lack of legitimacy for those in media roles. You are a 217.com employee, and U of I journalist-in-training. You must already know this, right?

On the other hand, mafias do make a lot of sense, eh?

Gee, I wonder what your stance would be if you had a publicity manager like Elle working for you... probably completely different.

Actually, I don't believe it would change things at all for John.

As for my ad hominem attack - I used those words because they accurately describe your online behavior and general disposition. The day I'm intellectually cornered by a troll I will quit the internet. period.

His general disposition? Come on now. And really, you're still skating around the issue as much as possible. Maybe you're more cornered than you realize. You may not like how he approaches things, but you're responding, which means his posts did the job. Yet you can't seem to actually just reply to the things he's saying? Instead you just say:

You are right, not many people like you.

Which is fucking bullshit.

I don't think its because you hold on to your definition of integrity. I think its because you are in some sort of discontent with everything around you and so you try to find what's wrong in every picture. I hope you learn to be a little bit more positive.

Look, John may not be the sunniest of people, but the guy is smart as a whip and he stands by what he thinks no matter what. At least he can go about stating things in a clever way without calling people "douchebags" or whatever.

santa is the most popular student band so they deserve the most publicity from the217, which focuses on student bands because it is run by illini media. this has nothing to do with elle, who doesn't write anything about santa. direct your bitterness at the music writers.

but more importantly...are the beauty shop being skipped because of what the dude from the beauty shop said?

"You know John, I'm not surprised it was you. It kind of hurts because I was planning on doing a Profile of The Beauty Shop this summer (I have a list I'm trying to get through)."

i think i'll post anonymously...

OK.

1. I love John Hoeffleur. We are friends. Nothing he says or writes will ever change that. After 10 years, it would be hard to dismantle my feelings about him. I love that he had the courage to be honest about his identity. And I agree with him on almost all of his points. He is smarter than most of us. Look at him blush.

2. Mason Kessinger and I founded this site for this very reason. We asked people to come aboard because we knew that it would take a lot of work, first and foremost, but also because we knew that I couldn't and SHOULDN'T be running a site where local and live music would be a focus of attention. I didn't WANT to run this site alone. And I don't. I just helped build it in order to get it moving.

We NEED alternative media, goddamnit. And we need it to be free from influence from advertisers.

We did SP.com because no one else seemed like they were going to do it. We created this site so that people could come on here and voice their opinions. I love that people have a place to come talk shit, even if it's about me. The community voice matters more to me than my ego ever will. At least, I try to maintain that before I shut my eyes at night. It hurts, sure, to hear people that are faceless bash me and my work. And even if they don't really understand that I have nothing to do with the music section on the whole, I love that people have that option. I just want Champaign to be filled with things. And by things, I mean all of it: the cultural fabric of C-U.

I can't just lay down or sit on my hands here. It's not my nature. My parents raised me to be active in my community. I am trying to be.

3. We don't "sell" advertising, for the record. We have no "sales staff". We don't try to get people to buy advertising by making them feel like they are missing out on something. It's a classic technique. And we don't use it. We don't believe in it.

If people WANT to buy advertisting, they can -- but they get the same speech every time: We aren't going to make their business immune to negative criticism here because they help us financially by purchasing advertising.

We trust that anyone advertising with us understands that SP.com, unlike other media outlets in C-U, doesn't have people who "work" here. We all have other jobs. We all have careers elsewhere. We started SP.com because we thought the community needed it. And it does, in our perhaps sometimes-not-so-humble opinion.

Nothing will EVER be influenced by advertising dollars. Ever. That's a promise. Strike me dead if that changes.

4. I hate that there is a presumed and inherent conflict of interest because of the fact that I work at The Canopy and I also founded SP.com. But it was that very reason that we immediately decided that we would have a music editor who really wasn't going to play favorites. Lindsey doesn't play favorites. In fact, if anything, I'd say that she is more than careful about what gets promoted and what doesn't.

5. I am the Sports Editor at SP.com. I don't care to write much about the music scene anyhow, and when I do, I don't write about the shows that I am involved in, and I definitely don't write about the bands that I represent. I only represent one band that is local now, anyhow. TMy focus for the magazine is to try to create an engaging environment for people who like both sports and alternative news. That's all, really.

http://www.smilepolitely.com/seth_fein/

Take a look at my articles. I think you will find that there are no real conflicts of interest at all. If anything regarding music -- I have been trying to give voice to a very under-represented "goth-industrial" scene that lurks in the underground.

I book indie-rock shows pretty much exclusively. So, I am sorry if anyone finds that to be a "conflict". I would like to stop writing about music all together, but you'll forgive me if I indulge sometimes. I kind of like music.

4. Parts of Buzz magazine definitely have a problem in the conflict of interest department. Big time.

And while the217.com hasn't been totally golden either, I think that even having this dialogue is going to help them out. And us too.

Remember, they are students and are learning. Matt Fender is doing a great job with his coverage of bands. And while I wouldn't have picked Santa to feature in the first month, I understand why he did: Santa is a popular and well-liked campus band. The 217 is a campus based web site.

That said, I definitely think they ought to put down something like: "Full Disclosure: the producer of the217.com is the publicist for this band".

Pitchfork has had to do the same thing recently with Vampire Weekend and High Places. Both bands are tied in, and while it doesn't mean they should be ostracized from getting press from them, it also means that responsible journalists will address the issue before it becomes an issue.

That means us, too. I think that full disclosure should be part of the growing process, and I am glad that this topic is on the table. We will discuss this at length next meeting.

5. We are not perfect. And I definitely want SP.com to be a place where people can say whatever they want without fear of being edited or censored.

I wish that "Excited/Se/How's That" would come write for us. I bet that who ever it is, they would be a great addition as a piece of the puzzle.

I love these towns, and want to see people, businesses, bands and the like succeed. I understand that some people dislike me personally -- though I am not totally positive why sometimes -- and I know that people have certain opinions about the way I do business, too. I can't please or help or work with everyone. I am just one person. And I am just doing my best.

Word up. Cubs just started former Cardinal / Cubs-killer Jim Edmonds in center field and he got fucking BOOED at Wrigley. Oh boy. Back to work.

I'm glad we had a nice talk and got a few things that "bother" some people out in the open. You might not buy this, but it really is for your (sp.com, 217.com) own good - I think what you've done so far has been remarkable and I think it would be a pity to undermine an otherwise solid rep. Rep intact - like I said, Chris hit the bullseye about how to best tread the line. Props to you guys for having the C.O. Jones to let the discussion continue.

I wasn't sure at first if it was wise to reveal myself, but then I thought, ah what the fuck? I can't keep quiet or anonymous because I fear reprisal from IMC or sp.com or whoever might have some pepper spray, a hard-on, and questionable judgment. Whack.

I do regret that Santa got pulled into this - I rather clumsily tried to keep the focus ("good bands, bad journalism") on the problem as I see it, jouralistic ethics and conflict of interest, not blame or denigrate fellow musicians and peers in the process. They are a high-quality group and I'm sure nice people, so I regret that in some sense their name got dragged through the mud a little bit, which is collateral damage I had hoped to avoid. Sincere apologies to the band for that, it was not my intention to slag you guys. Hope that's at least kind of cool.

I've since corresponded with Matt and he wisely pointed out that perhaps there are different standards about what is ok and not ok for a blog vs. traditional journalism/news - although I think this case is a little more complex and nuanced than that, it is a fair point, and a point taken.

PS I'm helping Larry with his expose. You're all totally fucked.

I kid, I kid!
love ya
Chip

***i think i'll post anonymously...***

And just to address this bit: you're not as anonymous on here as you might think. Your email address that you enter, even though not shown on the comments page, is included in an email sent to the staff member who wrote the item. Even if you enter a bogus email address, your IP address is logged and sent in that email, too.

right now i'm really confused. because if sp is trying to get mega-hits it would keep this on top of the page, and maybe there would be a new story (but perhaps i speak too soon! and of course, i can't provide content...).

also, it was really weird when the guy said that he didn't do ad hominem attacks, and then said that (a) people don't like john hoeffleur and (b) it's because he's in a bad mood sometimes. that was really lame. for shame, dood. golden rule: either be nice and suck it up, or look up words before you make yourself look real dumb.