Testify!

Also: these houses are hideous and detrimental to the environment and the community.

woah! good read!

This is such a “big baby approach.“ Just what is your point?  Do these guys have other jobs, inherited wealth, or spouses with such?  Who are they, and their churches and are the churches asking for more money but seing little return? Does the church post finances as a matter of policy on the web?  Its what I learned in public school- Who What, Where, When, and Why? Other wise its just “hurrah for my opinion.“ Or I think my research is so lame I can’t ask anyone to back it up.  In which case Ann Coulter could use a ghost writer, your style seems similar…
Whether the houses are detrimental to the community depends on how many people live there, some people actually reproduce eight times and put up relatives to care for them.

How is this a “big baby approach”?  What the hell does that even mean?  I think it is a valid argument.  Didn’t the vatican just update the seven deadly sins - one of them is to be “obscenely rich”?

I think this is a good, well written article on hypocrisy, and one should sit down and think twice about “practicing what we preach”.

I liked this article very mucho.  Especially since I was just told I was going to burn in hell eternally for taking the pill.

What would Jesus do? Wait, was he one of the underpaid carpenters that build these homes?

Andrea, no one else seem to have trouble locating the point of this article, Ryan sums it up nicely: “The Bible has a lot to say about wealth, but the message is consistent in all of its forms. The basic theme can be summarized like this: As long as there are poor, hungry, suffering, sick, homeless people in the world, nobody has any business hoarding wealth.“

The source of the wealth is irrelevant.  It doesn’t matter if the pastor’s wife (or husband!) makes the big bucks or if Aunt Helga left them her fortune.  Someone that claims to be a Christian leader should still live modestly and humbly.  Jesus is pretty clear on what should be done with excess wealth, give it to the poor.  What kind of social programs could have been started with the half mil that was laid down for the mansion in that picture?

Living that excessively is irresponsible of anyone but especially for those that claim to be moral leaders.

And the thing that is really sad about a lot of these pastors is that they condemn things such as homosexuality which isn’t a sin (and isn’t even directly addressed in the Bible), yet they somehow conveniently overlook greed which is condemned over and over and over again in the Bible! Hmmm? So two gay men (or women) who love one another, maybe want to adopt a child and live happy, peaceful lives caring for one another—that’s a bad thing; but pastors hoarding wealth in order to live luxurious, comfortable lives while obscene numbers of children die of starvation every day—that’s OK?

“And Jesus wept.“ (John 11.35)

Even under the umbrella term “Christian”, there are many groups and they have various things they promote.  One particular church I admire, although I am not a member.  I admire what they do for their members and for the economy of Urbana.  As many who have tried to do business in Urbana know, it isn’t easy.  It can even be heartbreaking and back breaking.  Some organizations are an inspiration to us all.  They show that is possible to be a Christian and not be a failure.  In fact, the more you succeed, the more you can give.  “The poor will always be with us” and it behooves us all to try to ameliorate their condition, but even Jesus did not continue to live in stable all his life.

http://www.canaanmbc.com/social.html

There are probably more erudite ways to say it, but this I believe; there is more than one way to skin a cat.
(Also, let he who is without sin cast the first stone)

Some Christian sects preach “manifest destiny” or a form of it in which there is a belief that it was “pre-ordained” and therefore good. Or in other words, they SHOULD be wealthy because it was their manifest destiny. They are not the least disturbed by their home or other worldly things, because somehoww god favored them with these things.

Still it says that it is harder for a rich man to pass throught the eye of a needle than a poor one, and other paradoxes related to wealth and consumption.

Of course, Manifest Destiny is also the principle by which the U.S. claimed its God-ordained mission to spead its Republic across the continent of North America, which of course led to—among other things—Indian removal and the general claim that slavery should be expanded as much as was seen fit in order to progress said Republic.

But I’m just here to complicate things.

That said, there are many congregations in C-U whose pastors and ministers live in their church’s parsonages, which are very modest, so despite the issue at hand there are some churches who seem to acknowledge humility in light of poverty.

Stubborn and can’t remember my login information,

Zack Adcock

The “big baby approach” for example: I disagree with you on a point I don’t think I can win or am unwilling to address (example birth control, homosexuality) so I pick something I think is easier.  If this is indeed your issue, there are/were other ways making the case, all of which involve more work.  Stating where one can find addresses attached to names is invasive and hardly “polite” and a little more than “direct” but more importunately it may not be accurate and its kinda like giving out the punchline with out telling the joke.  Did the writer consider his own address appears in the same location before opening this door?  Its attacking the person not the issue and that’s not the high road. I hope for more from you guys, why? because you are not fox news nor do you aspire to be ...do you?
One could have done a survey of the entire communities church websites and see who posts or is unwilling to post finances that every parishioner should be aware of and question.  Then inviting clergy and parishioners to the conversation would not just get the question additional voices but boost readership beside well, just…who exactly?  I would guess the list of ministers listed just on the Vineyard Church website ...will have more to say.
In a community that is asserting that artists should be financial compensated as trained carpenters I find it hard to believe that one would assert that someone with a degree, on 24/7 call, should be paid less based on scripture.  One could interpret the scriptures to include the entire “service” industry as one that should be as self sacrificing, nurses, teachers, doctors,... journalists.
I applaud scrutiny of any church lest they fall prey on their parishioners, they should welcome it, if not done in the spirit of self indulgence.  And since “indulgences” seem to be “on sale here” let me give toss out one of my own. 
Why is the West Urbana Neighborhood Association W.U.N.A. warranting main space editorial space?  In case no one has seen the two front page headlines of the dreaded News Gazette, the Urbana Park District is closing Crystal Lake Pool at 5pm all summer.  What affect will saving the cost of the three part time, seasonal employees for three hours be?  As much as the affect on the police for both communities with idle teens and crowded pools?  How will this disproportional affect low income and African American communities?  The lure of drugs, quadruples when combined with air conditioning.  Why in the last couple of months tear down their income producing rentals?  Why did they hire three full time employees just last fall?  How can they not make money on concerts with paid parking and paid advance preferred seating with a free shuttle and no overhead? Why are the financed of a PUPLIC entity not on-line or meeting televised?  Why has their long range strategic plan been published, on display or on-line?  Why was the cost of the new staff building not mentioned in the new tax request?  Are these cuts as needed as we have been led to believe, just to get the money in November?  If people can’t demand the basics in the public arena, how are they to find the tools to do on it Sunday?

wouldnt it have been more telling to list the kinds of cars these pastors drive?

anyway, i think we’re doing pretty good if we top out at under $.5 million.  really all this tells me is that these people have been blessed by God and have loving congregations that support them and their missions.  this article in no way proves that they hoard money are greedy or really, even if they’re rich.  nor does it indicate what portion of themselves (time, money, resources, prayer!) they offer in Christ’s name.  i imagine that this amount is worth much more than any assessor’s office is even capable of calculating.

props on the cs lewis quote!!

-brigham

Lol at the above poster.  The fact that these people have luxurious homes is very telling.  Where do they get this money?  I bet it comes from tithing the people in their congregation.  Do these people know exactly how this money is being spent?  Does the church tell them that a lot of it will go to funding a lavish lifestyle for their preacher and the other staff associated with the church?  I highly doubt it. 

These people are leeches and hypocrites.  It wouldn’t hurt if more of you devotees would pull some of that wool away from your eyes.

Are there greedy and materialistic Christians, sadly yes. And they rightly need to be called out. However, two cautions are in order, lest in our rush to point out their sins, we commit more of our own.

1) You don’t know what goes on in those houses. Sure, you can assume an awful lot, but you don’t know. You don’t know what size families live in each of those houses. Maybe that space is needed, maybe not, but we don’t know. We don’t know how many of those people open their homes to strangres, providing a roof over those who don’t have one. It would be great if they did, but I can’t assume they don’t.

2) Where is our line and standard for “excessive wealth.“ Usually it is just above the lifestyle we choose to maintain—often the lifestyle we are forced to maintain because of our own earning capacity. Thus, whoever has more is one of the evil rich, and whoever has less is the poor, poor pitiful poor. But Ryan, do you own a home? Cause I don’t. Therefore, you’re the one living in extravagant luxury. You really need to sell that thing and find something a lot smaller. It’ll be better for the environment and all that.

Ryan, well, I was going to respond and engage, but since your website changes the “prove you’re a human” code between the time I start to write and the time I finish and then loses my response, we’re going to have to pick this up at another time.

Ryan, you never told me whether or not you own a house. I have seen your car, and I assume you paid money for it. So on what basis are you justifying your car? And on what basis do you justify your home, if you own one? I eagerly await your answers.

As for people justifying the homes of these pastors on the basis of their “good deeds,“ I agree that is a foolish excuse. Unless, of course, the pastor is using the home for good deeds, then it would be a legitimate argument. However, since neither of us can argue either way without some intensive violation of privacy, the point is rather moot.

But still, to be sure that he who is without sin is casting the first stone here, I encourage you, Ryan, to post pictures of all your possessions, your wife’s possessions, and your children’s possessions so that we can all verify that the pot is not calling the kettles black. We certainly do not want you to be open to the charges of hypocrisy.

I am not tentmaking in Wyoming. And there is nothing wrong with that. I am relying on the generosity of others so I can devote my full-time to preaching and teaching. If you have questions over how much I’m raising, I’ll be happy to answer in a non-public forum. I’ll also send you a copy of my monthly budget for auditing, if you wish to hold my wife and I accountable.

Remember, the very model of tentmaking you lift up, Paul, is the one who adamantly defends the right of elders and apostles to make their living from the gospel. He is also the one who gave up tentmaking in Athens when financial support came from Philippi.

You have my email if you wish to take me up on my offer of auditing my budget in exchange for a chance to audit yours.

“Ryan, you never told me whether or not you own a house. I have seen your car, and I assume you paid money for it. So on what basis are you justifying your car? And on what basis do you justify your home, if you own one? I eagerly await your answers.“

——————-

This seems silly.  Since when is Ryan in any kind of leadership position that preaches any kind of moral set?

Since when are moral leaders held to a different standard than their followers? I know it comes to a shock to many, including many Christians, there is not one standard for Christian preachers and another for Christian blog-writers, doctors, lawyers, etc. Christians are all answerable to the same standard of morality.

I do not say this to excuse greedy pastors. No, greedy pastors should be called out for any failure to live up to the standards they profess. However, the same is true for any bloggers who claim to follow Christ. (I make these assumptions about Ryan based on personal, off-line interaction with him.)

These pastors are not excused for moral failings, nor is Ryan, nor am I, nor is anyone else.

Certainly, I won’t deny that. From the inside, I know the struggles, temptations, and hardships of pastoral ministry. However, from the inside, I can also look out at people like you who come to church, sit in the pew, and try to judge me as a pastor. In their minds, all my faults, and there are plenty, are magnified out of proportion into a characature of reality.

See, if we can all pretend the pastor is really “most self-serving, arrogant, hypocritical” person in the church, then we can all go away feeling oh so much better about ourselves. Sure I may be a jerk, but the pastor has a big house and is obviously greedy and money hungry. He’s so much worse than I am, so it doesn’t really matter how bad I am.

The sad truth is, if you put any person into the spotlight, you’re going to see their warts. But the people who sit in the back pew, in the shadow of the balcony, can conveniently cover up theirs.

On that we are in full agreement.

Church builds $1 million mansion for Wright

http://www.suntimes.com/business/867629,CST-NWS-wright29.article

I was going to post the story about Wright, but at the time, I could only find it on Fox News’ site and did not think Ryan would accept it. So what say you, Ryan? Does Wright receive an equal dose of your wrath?

Sure, what I said about other ministers applies to Wright, namely, we don’t know the full details about the situation. We don’t know his intentions for that house or how generous and charitable he will be with it. If this is a case of greed, I pray God will convict him.