What Does The Bible Really Say About Homosexuality?
There is a bill in the Illinois House (HB 1826) that, if passed, will give same-sex couples the right to be joined together in a civil union. This bill has a dozen or so sponsors including our very own 103rd District Representative, Naomi Jakobsson. According to it’s synopsis, this bill does the following:
_“Creates the Illinois Religious Freedom Protection and Civil Unions Act…. Provides that 2 persons may form a civil union if they: are not related by adoption or blood in any manner that would bar a civil union; are not in another civil union or marriage with any other living person; and are not under 18 years of age. Provides that: protections, benefits, and responsibilities of partners in a civil union are the same as those granted to spouses in a marriage…. and a civil union between 2 persons of either the same sex or the opposite sex licensed, officiated, and registered under the Act is valid in this State.”_
Proposed bills like this one really ruffle the feathers of conservative evangelical Christians and their fundamentalist cousins, the groups collectively known as the “Religious Right”. They insist that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin.
But does the Bible really state this? The short answer is, actually, no.
This is not a claim, however, that can be discussed without some honest empirical evidence to back it up, despite the right-wing proclamation of the opposite. For the long answer, let’s take a little tour of the Bible and see what it really says.
First, it should be pointed out that the sayings and teachings of Jesus make up the core of Christian belief. Homosexuality, however, is never addressed by Jesus in any of the canonic Gospels. What Jesus does talk about over and over again is oppression. Whether it was of the poor by the rich or of the powerless by the powerful.
One of the few stories about Jesus that mentions any kind of sexual sin is found in chapter 8 in the Gospel of John. Here we find a woman who had committed adultery (forbidden by the 7th commandment), but Jesus was not concerned with her sexual indiscretion. His focus was on the townspeople who wanted to stone her to death. So even in this case of sexual sin (adultery, in this case, that was clearly forbidden by Jewish law), Jesus came to the defense of the “sinner.” When he challenged the mob by saying “whoever was without sin should throw the first stone”, the people went away one by one. Then he told the accused woman that he did not condemn her. Jesus stood up for the persecuted.
There are only a handful of passages in the bible that actually deal with same-sex intercourse and none of them deal with it directly. It is always in a larger context of ritual purity, rape, prostitution or pedophilia; in other words, they are presented in situations where someone is being exploited or sexually abused. Same-sex intercourse is never addressed in the context of two mutually-consenting adults.
One passage is in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19). In it, God hears that there are more than a few indiscretions transpiring, so he sends a couple of angels to see what is happening. The person who meets them is Lot and he invites them to stay in his house and have dinner.
Then, a bunch of men from Sodom come and knock on Lot’s door. They say, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, so that we may know them.”
Now, Hebrew is a funny language. The word for “know” (yada) can mean literally “to know someone”, or it can mean “to have sex with someone”. So at best, these Sodomites are saying they want to meet and literally get to know who Lot’s guests are; and at worst, they’re saying they want to have sex with Lot’s guests. Since we can assume that God’s angels aren’t interested in a casual hook-up with these guys, what the Sodomites are really saying is that they want to rape Lot’s guests.
Lot verifies this with his response: “I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly.”
The wicked act in this story is not same-sex intercourse. It is rape. Rape is a horrific act that should definitely be condemned. But same-sex intercourse between consenting adults should not for a very simple reason: it hurts no one.
Let’s look at some other passages.
Leviticus 18.22 says, “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.” (NRSV) And Leviticus 20.13 says, “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.” (NRSV)
The word “abomination” in these passages is not a very good translation. The Hebrew word toevah means something that is ritually unclean and it was used in lots of other contexts, particularly dietary laws. Pork is toevah. A lot of Christians who try to use these passages to condemn gay people overlook the fact that they, too, are toevah because of the bacon they had for breakfast. Bloody meat also is toevah, so that medium rare steak you had for dinner last week also made you unclean.
The fact is, Leviticus forbids a lot of questionable things that by today’s standards, most Christians ignore. For example, Leviticus 9.27 states, “You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard.” (NRSV) So, according to this, a shave and a haircut are an “abomination” as well. It really depends on how you look at it, etymologically.
That’s it for the Hebrew Bible (or the Old Testament). Those are the only passages that mention same-sex intercourse and, as we can see, they were all in larger contexts of rape and ritual purity, not in the context of two consenting adults.
Now, let’s examine what the Christian scriptures (or New Testament) say.
All of the Christian scriptures that seem to address same-sex intercourse are attributed to one person: the apostle, Paul.
In his first letter to the Corinthians, he writes,“Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6.9, NRSV)
And in his first letter to Timothy, Paul writes, “Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it legitimately. This means understanding that the law is laid down, not for the innocent but for the lawless and disobedient, for the godless and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their father or mother, for murderers, fornicators, sodomites, slave traders, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.” (1 Timothy 1.10, NRSV)
The word in both of these passages that is translated into English as “sodomite” is the Greek word arsenokoitais. It is a very tricky word to translate because Paul seems to be the only person ever to have used it. It is literally not found anywhere else to our knowledge in ancient Greek writings. A literal translation of this word would be a man with many beds or the more slang and vulgar version, a man who likes to fuck. This implies simply a promiscuous person—not a gay person.
Since the meaning of arsenokoitais is more than a little vague, responsible translators (such as in the NRSV) have used the similarly-vague English word “sodomite”. But even sodomy is losing its sexually vague meaning as it has begun to evolve into a word for anal intercourse (which has only added to the confusion of this issue). A better word for modern translations might be “slut”, but this word unfortunately usually implies a female whereas Paul’s passages refer specifically to men. There is simply no word in the English language that means “male slut”. All of this is useful, however, to illustrate the sexist bias our culture gives to men. Promiscuous women are called sluts whereas promiscuous men are called studs? It’s an interesting detail to note.
Unfortunately, to make this problem even worse, there are some very irresponsible translators (e.g. NIV and New Living) that have begun to use the English word “homosexual” for the Greek arsenokoitais. This is very irresponsible because now a lot of relatively unknowing Christians use these poor translations and say, “See? It says right there: homosexuality is a sin!”
The only other passage in the New Testament that addresses same-sex intercourse is in Paul’s letter to the Romans where he writes, “For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error. (Romans 1. 26-17, NRSV)
If we read these passages carefully, we see it is not passion that is bad, but degrading passions. It is not intercourse that is frowned upon, but unnatural intercourse. In other words, if you are engaging in sex acts that don’t feel right for you, then you should stop. For a heterosexual, it would feel unnatural to engage in same-sex activities. But for a gay man or a lesbian, the opposite is true! For gays and lesbians, the natural thing for them is same-sex intercourse.
I think Benjamin Franklin punched the issue right in the nose when he wrote, “Sin is not harmful because it is forbidden, but it is forbidden because it is harmful.” The fact is that it seems like most Christians need to step back from their Bibles, take a deep breath, and just ask themselves what the issue really is here.
Jesus had it right. The bottom line is this: who is being oppressed and persecuted? Who is getting hurt? Rape is bad—it hurts people. Pedophilia is bad—it hurts children. Violence is bad. Killing is bad. Starvation is bad. Lying is bad. Stealing is bad. War is bad. Racism is bad. Sexism is bad. These things hurt people.
And homophobia, too, is bad. It also hurts people.
Men kissing men in consent doesn’t hurt anyone. And neither does women kissing women. If they are consenting adults, it’s all good. And if they love one another, then God blesses that relationship. God really likes it when people love one another.
And we should too.
So, it should be a really easy call for those of us who call ourselves Christians.
Don’t let homophobia rule. Call your state congressman and tell them to vote for Illinois House Bill 1826.
46 comments
bythetracks
Cheers to you! Out with ignorance and bashing what we don’t really know (the Christian bible)and in with knowledge!
Oh, and don’t forget the woman at the well. She isn’t even married in the book of paul.
laffin
“Then he told the accused woman that he did not condemn her. Jesus stood up for the persecuted.“
So, you leave out the fact that Jesus told her not to SIN any more, because that doesn’t fit your agenda, here.
I get it. Decide what you wish the Bible said, and figure out how to make it sound that way.
Ryan D. Neaveill
Biff,
Thanks for your comment, but I’m not sure you read my article very carefully because I’m sure I was quite clear about ADULTERY being a sin in that passage. As I said in my article numerous times:
“One of the few stories about Jesus that mentions any kind of sexual SIN…“
“Here we find a woman who had committed adultery (FORBIDDEN by the 7th commandment)...“
<blockquote>“even in this case of sexual SIN (adultery, in this case, that was clearly FORBIDDEN by Jewish law)...“
(all emphases mine)
Yes, there is no doubt that adultery is a sin. Adultery is hurtful to the one who is being betrayed.
However, mutually-consenting same-sex relationships are NOT sin. They do not hurt anyone. And they are NOT forbidden by either Jewish or Christian scripture.
Peace and love to you.
</blockquote>
laffin
I read your article, and it takes some intentional twisting to turn Paul’s comments in Romans from his obvious meaning of what’s unnatural to God’s plan, into what’s unnatural to an individual’s plan.
It’s the same pattern I mentioned before. First, decide what’s good for me, and then figure out how that must have been what God was saying in his Word.
I don’t recommend your style of exegesis.
Ryan D. Neaveill
But the flaw with what you are saying is that I am not benefitting from this. I am not gay. I’m in a married, heterosexual relationship. So I’m not twisting anything in scripture to fit my sexual orientation.
What I am trying to do is educate people as to what the Bible actually says. And I’m trying to expose the hatred some folks have towards people who don’t conform to the status quo.
Over the years people have twisted what the Bible says to oppress blacks, women, Native Americans. And today they use it to oppress the LGBT community.
As far as your idea of “what’s unnatural to God’s plan,“ I can only say that since God created Gays and Lesbians, then they are a natural part of God’s plan.
As God told Peter in Acts 10, “What God has made clean, you must not call profane.”
So, don’t condemn gays and lesbians. God made ‘em. God loves ‘em. And God wants them to have all the blessings that heterosexuals have in our society: The right to marry, the right to economic benefits, the right to raise children, etc.
Don’t stand in the way of God’s love.
bythetracks
I think it is important to keep in mind that the bible retains its relevancy and potency for millenia due to its ability to speak to every age in its own time.
If I understand the writer of this article correctly, he speaks most poignantly of the human passions and the will. While the bible makes a number of references to this topic, some paradoxical, it clearly does not condemn the passions. Rather it challenges one to be a person—one, whole and complete, unified in the Spirit.
As for the woman at the well, John 4, I see this as a characteristic writing of John prophetically calling us all to ourselves and a life in the Sprit. It is for we who are not yet perfect, and as yet not one with the Spirit that is the All:
Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks this[well] water will be thirsty again;
14
but whoever drinks the water I shall give will never thirst; the water I shall give will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.“
15
The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water, so that I may not be thirsty or have to keep coming here to draw water.“
16
Jesus said to her, “Go call your husband and come back.“
17
The woman answered and said to him, “I do not have a husband.“ Jesus answered her, “You are right in saying, ‘I do not have a husband.‘
18
For you have had five husbands, and the one you have now is not your husband. What you have said is true.“
19
The woman said to him, “Sir, I can see that you are a prophet.
God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth.“
Later the bible recalls to us that the challenge is to live free in the Spirit and not to become the slave of any one thing: master your passion, for if you do not, you will become its slave.
Peace to you.
sunnysideup
quote: “If we read these passages carefully, we see it is not passion that is bad, but degrading passions. It is not intercourse that is frowned upon, but unnatural intercourse. In other words, if you are engaging in sex acts that don’t feel right for you, then you should stop. For a heterosexual, it would feel unnatural to engage in same-sex activities. But for a gay man or a lesbian, the opposite is true! For gays and lesbians, the natural thing for them is same-sex intercourse.“
Why would a heterosexual man be engaging in a sex act with another man if he didn’t want to do it? I’m sorry, but your interpretation of the Romans passage was arrived at through some serious moral gymnastics.
Taken quite literally, Paul means what he says. So does God.
One thing you left out from the tale of the adulterous woman. While Jesus did defend her, he told her “go and sin no more.“ Her adultery (sex outside of marriage) was sinful. Gay people couldn’t marry then, and for the most part they can’t marry now. Any sex outside of marriage is considered sinful, so Jesus would have defended both an adulterous woman and a gay man equally, but he would have told both to “go and sin no more.“
Best of luck to ya!
Ryan D. Neaveill
sunnysideup, thanks for your response.
There are a lot of reasons why a heterosexual man might have sex with another man. I have some friends who have a ministry in Chicago helping male prostitutes get off the streets. Most of these men are heterosexual but they have turned to prostitution (and sex with other men) in order to survive. So, even though you may not understand why this sometimes happens, the fact is that it does happen.
And there are also lots of reasons why gay men might pretend to be straight—the ridiculous social stigma of being gay probably being the number-one reason.
If you read closely the things that Paul condemns you will see that they are things that are hurtful: thieves, the greedy, robbers, those who kill their father or mother, murderers, slave traders, liars, perjurers. I’m sorry, but being gay does not fit in that category and to mistranslate Paul’s words so it aligns with one’s homophobic beliefs is terrible and hurtful. Being gay is not hurtful to anyone. Being gay and in a committed, loving relationship is a good thing, not bad.
And I reiterate, Gay men and women should have every right that heterosexual, married people have.
Robert Sievers
Jesus was quite clear on the subject on who should be married to whom. But, I am sure you will find some way to interpret this the way you want.
4 And He answered and said, “Have you not read (E)that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5and said, ‘(F)FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND (G)THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’? 6"So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.“
Ryan D. Neaveill
Robert,
You need to back up a few verses and read to what question Jesus was responding. The pharisees did not ask Jesus a question about homosexuality but a question about divorce: “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause?”
Jesus then responded with the verses that you took out of context. Jesus was saying that those whom God has joined together in marriage should not divorce unless one of the two commits adultery.
There is nothing in the Bible that limits God to marrying only males with females.
And the creation myth to which Jesus alluded is but one of two creation narratives in the Bible.
The first story in Genesis, the “Priestly” creation (chapter 1 through chapter 2.3), emphasizes procreation as the purpose for the male and female union (“Be fruitful and mulitply”). And of course, one typically needs both a male and a female to reproduce! Though even this is irrelevant in modern times when we can use artificial insemination, in vitro fertilization, or even simply adoption!
But in the second (and older) creation story, the “Yahwist” account (chapter 2.4 through 3.24), God makes no commands to reproduce. In this story God notes that, “It is not good that the human should be alone.“ This provides the impetus for God’s creation of a partner for the adam.
Love and companionship do not require that the two partners be of the opposite sex!
In other words, the only reason there are male and female sexes is so that our species can reproduce. And reproduction can happen regardless of whether two organisms are married—animals have sex and reproduce all the time without being married!
But marriage is something much deeper and more profound than reproduction. Marriage is about commitment and love, not having children. So God can join two people in marriage no matter what their gender is. And we should not stand in the way of the good that God would do.
Robert Sievers
Ryan,
Your logic is that the verse about men and women does not exclude same sex couples. By that same logic, the Bible says that its ok for you to marry an animal, a dead person, or a child, because it never EXPLICITLY states these are wrong.
Go for it dude. I am glad God is your judge, not I.
Ryan D. Neaveill
Now, Robert, I think you know you’re just being plain silly. As I said in my article “Same-sex intercourse is never addressed in the context of two mutually-consenting adults” in the bible.
I think any reasonable human being can see that of the examples you listed—an animal, a dead person, a child—none of these would qualify as a consenting adult.
jjarse2
Then, a bunch of men from Sodom come and knock on Lot’s door. They say, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, so that we may know them.”
‘Trying to remember the last time I heard a rapist ask permission to rape someone and then take no for an answer.
Read the whole story, jjarse2. The Sodomites were clearly attempting to use force and were stopped only because they were blinded.
Here’s Genesis 19.9-11:
But they replied, “Stand back!” And they said, “This fellow came here as an alien, and he would play the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them.” Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near the door to break it down. But the men inside reached out their hands and brought Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. And they struck with blindness the men who were at the door of the house, both small and great, so that they were unable to find the door.
bythetracks
Since we’re STILL on this subject…
“Any sex outside of marriage is considered sinful, so Jesus would have defended both an adulterous woman and a gay man equally, but he would have told both to “go and sin no more.“
“Best of luck to ya.“?? Pray tell, what do you mean?? What luck, perhaps we have not understood each other?
And back to the paradoxical nature of the bible. It is full of verse and poetry in which among other styles paradox is included.
The point here is that many posts later and mud slung about, perhaps the answer lies in paradox, and that is not so easy to say exactly what that consists of or means.
The Johanian account I rendered for good reading is typically seem as a more paradoxical and mystical account. The woman is an example. So… the simple conclusion of sin no more may not be the point here. It seems that rather Jesus is offering her a “living water” and that is the point.
It also says somewhere in the book not to condemn or judge others and to take the plank out of your eye.
Guy
Just wanted to say my bit..
I don’t really agree with what you are saying Dr., but I do agree that the way “Christians” persecute gays is horrible. I think that the Bible does condemn homosexuality, but that doesn’t mean for a moment that we should treat homosexuals any differently than anyone else. Most homophobes persecute gays because of their own insecurities and prejudices, not for religions reasons. They merely use the bible as a justification for their hate. Of course, like you suggested, practically taking a random bible verse from anywhere in matthew 5 will clearly reveal the nature of Jesus’ ministry: love not hate.
Just to clear things up, I think that God made gay people the way they are - that they’re not the result of social conditioning. God makes plenty of people prone to different kinds of sin. For example, many people in my extended family are alcoholics. I haven’t yet struggled with that problem yet, but I am under age, so it’s really not a possibility right now.
I’m willing to take questions, I have bible class every day (christian school) so i know a whole lot about this stuff.
I suggest reading Dietrich Bonhoffer’s The Cost of Discipleship . He indirectly addresses your ideas when he says: “Cheap grace means the justification of sin without the justification of the sinner. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate. We have gathered like eagles round the carcass of cheap grace, and there we have drunk the poison which has killed the life of following Christ.”
I just wanted to put my ideas out there. I would love a response from you, I’ve never heard your approach to this issue. I personally wish with all my heart that the bible allowed homosexuality, but there are a lot of things that I wish the bible allowed, haha.
Guy
P.S. Kudos for actually responding to all of these people!
Aand.. bythetracks, I wouldn’t actually call his article “bashing”—it’s far from it. He is way too polite in it to be a bashing article
bythetracks
Well, I can see that you have a good sense of humor which will take you far.
I appreciate your comments. You have touched upon a very important difference in theological understanding in your post.
Most simply put, Orthodox Christians and Catholic Christians see the world from a state of grace and that redemption is the ultimate point, not words alone. This is at variance with most Protestant denominations.
True there is the logos; however the example of John again, demonstrates that it was not his words, but first his witness to the Samaritan woman, and then finally her own understanding of his gift OF HIMSELF without price, that he was the Messiah which caused her to believe and then to witness to her entire village.
She saw and she believed. In doing so even those of her Samaritan village was more discerning in faith of the Christ than his own Disciples at that point. She came then into grace.
This is Jesus’ radical power to know and then to not just have love, but to BE love as very self (‘I AM, HE WHO IS, THE ALL’ he states elsewhere).
To learn more there are a number of excellent books, such as the one you suggest; also the writer Anthony Gittens is another one who may make this Way more clear for the average reader.
Easter to All.
KFM
I got to here and stopped: Then he told the accused woman that he did not condemn her. Jesus stood up for the persecuted.
Only because you left off the rest, “And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.“
Any one can make any verse work to their favor if they only quote half of it. Also in Romans it says:
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Translate it however you want, but when making a point, don’t skip over and cut off verses to make it. There are others that I could reference, but only to strengthen my point, not to refute it.
Zane
You know, people over the years have been adding and taking things out of the bible. I’m sure the original writings god commanded to be put in it have been re-written so many times that we really don’t know what Gods words were. I believe in God, I know he loves every person who has ever been born since Adam and Eve. I know God loves me because he’s helped me in more ways than I could ever know. I am gay. I really don’t think God wants me to be miserable with a woman just so i can go to heaven. God wants all of us to find a pertner, someone to spend the rest of our lives with, and I believe if you’re gay and you’re in a loving relationship, that God will bless you and help that relationship grow. This world of ours has become so single minded and filled full of hatred that I wish I could for just one minute get their attention, to explain how loving God is. God does not hate, god is an almighty and powerful love, he is the heart beating in your chest, and the air you breathe. And I pray that people wake up and realize God is always there and willing to help them before its too late. So please do not say God hates, because God is nothing but love and peace, and he is the way to eternal salvation.
Zane
And one more thing, all of you can go throughout every verse in the bible a hundred times. You will never see one sentence in it stating god sends homosexuals to hell. Just like the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas, those people are so absorbed by the devil that they don’t know whats real and what isn’t. So if you’re gay, and you’re in a relationship with someone and it lasts a lifetime, praise God for that blessing, and thank him every day for watching over you.
Now as the narrator has said, what we read in the bible about homosexality being abomination, this is in reference to those who are whores, sodomists, rapists, and anyone who deliberately tries to hurt another person. This (I Believe) does not reference to those gays and lesbian people who are in long term relationships, however it does apply to those men and women who sleep with a different guy or girl every night and/or get paid for it. Use your brains, don’t twist things up.
This is basically the same discussion that has been going on for the last 40 years (although more civil, good that). Here are my random thoughts, after a long lifetime of seriously considering the issue. 1) The Bible has nothing to say related to mature, same-sex romantic relationships. All seeming such references relate to non-consensual or intergenerational sex. 2) After Lot refused to turn over his guests to the rapists at the door, didn’t he offer them his daughters instead? I guess the God of the Old Testament perceived women as property and that raping them would be OK. 3) Maybe our use of gay people as scapegoats and second-class citizens (or God-made “sinners” as someone here suggests) is how we as a society make use of gay people. Maybe our society needs scapegoats to blame. Other cultures—such as the Native Americans naming of “berdache” or “two-spirit” people—found ways to honor and incorporate and make functional the gay people in their society. In Southern Mexico and in some South American cultures, certain mestizo gay men dress and live as women and are welcomed in those cultures as a gift from God. If we need scapegoats, we should admit that’s what we are doing and stop using the Bible to justify it. 4) Using the Bible to preach against gayness promotes violence, suicide, and despair, particularly in young people who have no choice in their sexual orientation. Even if we are sure we are correct and think we know what the Bible really means about gayness, we have no right to insist that other people adhere to what we merely believe. To do so has caused endless pain, suffering, damage, and death. We are to love unconditionally. We are to judge only ourselves in these matters, not others. 4) It may seem distasteful to you to envision gay sex. But so is envisioning sex between your parents. Keep the pictures in your head out of the bedrooms of other people if you are going to condemn.
Michelle Grimm-Gossett
Thank you for this article.
Tom Kapr
Leviticus 9:27 does not exist. I believe you meant to quote Leviticus 19:27. Also, Romans 1:26-17 is a mathematical impossibility, but it’s pretty clear you meant to quote Romans 1:26-27. Still, accurate references are important especially for people who are unfamiliar with the Scriptures.
Trying to figure out whether the Bible does or does not condone homosexuality is a dead end. There’s no rational reason to believe that Bible actually reflects the word of God. It’s just something that people under that impression made up and wrote down.
Masen Bell
i thank you, u have open my eyes about the bible and i think it should be ok that gays marry it dosent hurt anyone, if they happy then let them be happy, i wish the world can see our way instead of being so self-minded
slaves got there freedom, woman got the right to vote, i cant see y gays cant get that right they want i thank you again
Gabrielle
Here is what I would like to say….
God himself is perfect right? He makes no mistakes right? He know all things, and is the creator of all things in the heavens and the earth. If you are a christian and believe this to be true….Then you know that he made no mistakes in creating his children. God knew who you were in the hall of sparrow before you even came to be, and if that happened to be gay or lesbian….SURPISE SURPRISE! He knew that too!
To saw that bing gay is wrong, would be the same is saying that God was wrong for making a person the way they were born. It is to say that the father is wrong! There is nothing that could be further from the truth.There is the sin in itself…calling your creator mistaken for the work that he has done in creation.
He knows all of our lives before they come to pass, and that includes your sexuality.
The last thing that I want to say is that your judgement of others is AS GREAT A SIN AS THOSE YOU CONDEMN!!!
Why don’t you all try to remember that! No sin is greater than another in God’s eyes!
Bud Utley
I know I stepping into an area where I have done much less study and may be a mental light weight but.
I find it interesting that anytime I do not agree with someone I am a hater but when you disagree with me you’re enlightened. There is enough hate out there without seeing it places where it is not. It weakens the argument against true hate.
I’m surprised by so many people that would like to forget about the Bible and judgment. They seem to want to pretend that God is not going to judge.
I think I remember that God does hate. I seem to remember Jesus getting angry. It may be instructive to study what God hates & what made Jesus angry.
What kind of person would I be if I saw a person drowning & did not try to save him? Would it make a difference if the person did not know they were drowning? Would it make a difference if I only thought the person was drowning? The point is many people believe homosexuality is a drowning issue. Do not think less of them because they want to through you a life preserver.
Next I believe that intelligent people can look at the same thing & come to different conclusions even with Gods direction. I really hope that I am wrong in the conclusion that I have reached in looking at what God has to say on this issue. But since the stakes are so high I want the right to keep on trying to change your mind without being called a hater.
Jessica
I don’t know exactly how to interperate every single verse in the bible. I don’t think anyone does. All I know is that I don’t understand why homosexuals cannot marry. I am a heterosexual and am in a long term relationship with my boyfriend, and both of us agree that it should not be up to the government to allow gays to marry. Why do we involve what the bible says with our government? Many people around the nation are not Christian. There are tons of other religions in this world, so why are we governing our Nation with what the bible says?
I am a Christian. I believe that Jesus Christ died for all of our sins. But I don’t believe that God is going to condemn all homosexuals to hell. It is not their CHOICE to be gay. No one would choose to be persecuted in the way that gays are persecuted. They can’t help how they feel, just as much as I can’t help being attracted to my boyfriend. The bottom line is that people should not care what other people do. Its no one elses business. It should not be upto the government to decide if gays should marry. I do not enjoy watching homosexuals kissing in public, nor do I enjoy watching heterosexuals kissing in public. Its the same thing!
Not allowing gays to marry is not going to make them dissapear. Allowing gays to marry does not affect anyone negatively. This should really be a non-issue.
Christopher
Ok I have not read everything here but what I did catch was… well… no words to describe.
Thanks by the way, the article is great. My view is that the Lord says to his children to come as you are. I realise that unity will never happen till His coming but it’s amazing how His own people like to spread disunity amongst all those that He cares about and Loves. Who do you think you are and is your prejudiced comments what Jesus would have said? Are your comments filled with love and grace or anger and judgement?
The grace of God teaches acceptance and forgiveness not judgement and hate. Hate the sin not the sinner if you must disagree. But I think that if you have to disagree with the article so passionately it speaks of your own issues. In your way just because you don’t agree it comes across as you twisting Bible to suit what you want. I think the article is great.
The thinning out of god’s people over something as trivial and stupid as this is disgusting. People are losing faith while we sit here and argue. How can God love when his people judge is what a lot of the flock are saying and feeling. Do you think God is happy with some of the statements I’ve seen here and the results of those statements? This is why you don’t see the majority of homosexual people in the churches we are tired of being judged by the very people who claim to serve a God that is forgiving, loving, forthcoming, accepting, graceful, etc. etc. It’s not God who has chased us away it’s the very people who claim to serve Him and who are apparently striving to know Him more and to know what’s in His heart and who strive to be more like Jesus. Do you people really know what’s in His heart or do you just claim to know? Your disgusting comments don’t make believe for one second that you strive to be closer to God…maybe you want people to believe that but its surely not true. Please take the forest growing in your eye out first before you even think to try and remove my splinter. Do you think your own little agendas at defending His word is what he wants or needs? Who could be soooo arrogant? Do think to ask Him before you make absurd comments on the net for the world to see? Do you really think that to disagree and to defend so vigilantly is God or your own insignificant perceptions and agendas? His Word needs no defending it’s as it stands. Each to their own path and destiny. Just because mine is different to yours does not warrant your judgements. You say that the Bible says that the blood of the lamb washes away iniquities. But how can it do that when you remind us all the time of how we are abominations. Sis and you say you are the temple of the Holy Spirit and that Christ resides in your heart. I think you need to question whether that is true or not because you do not behave as I believe Jesus would have wanted you to behave and if the Lord were really in your heart your comments would be a lot more Godlike instead of ego-like.
If I offend my apologies. Must say again though the article is great and we need more people like you to bring unity in this divided land. Thanks.
Blessings to you all!
Jesica
Thank you for the thought-provoking discussion. While I continue to study these passages and seek the wisdom of God on this issue this has been a great help in seeing different perspectives.
While it is my tendency to say that the act of engaging in same-sex intercourse is wrong or sinful - does not negate the fact that I love all people and only want the best for humanity. I do not condone abuse or hate of any kind. While I see that the OT passages can leave much for interpretation and cultural relativity the fact remains that sin of any kind should be avoided.
As I read through the commentary left by your readers I have noticed two logics that seem very weak -
1. God made homosexuals so it must be “good”. This logic is very flawed since one can argue that God also created people that are murderers, rapists, alcoholics, and thieves. We must remember that (according to mainstream evangelical teachings) man is born with one major flaw - being bent on doing the wrong thing. That is why we needed Jesus in the first place. I can not intellectually agree that because we are born a certain way we must sucumb to our natural desires. If that were the case I would have already left my husband, abandoned my child and stolen my way to monetary security.
2. That same sex relationships do not harm anyone. This brings up some other discussion points… In my experience with the GLBT community there is still a certain “male/female” role to the relationship. One partner seems more masculine and the other is more feminine. What does the bible say about gender roles? Aren’t men to be men and women to be women? To complement one another and set the basis for a functional family dynamic? ...How does this lifestyle choice affect the children raised in it? I don’t know the answer to these questions, but I think it warrants discussion. Also… the whole idea of other cultures “accepting” GLBT people by having “gay men dress and live as women” seem more like they are trying to disguise the fact that people are homosexual instead of welcoming that lifestyle?
Regardless of discussion, there is one thing we can all agree on… God loves all people and wants the best for them. Amen to that!
Aleck
I am a lesbian who has a wondeful relationship with Christ. I am prepared to answer to him. I wonder how many on the radio-tv-blog condemming individuals have stones in their hands that they can cast? Judge in the way you wish to be judged…I say there are going to be some people who wished they would have paid a bit more attention to that directive.
Don’t worry about those who are around you, focus on Christ, knowing him, he will profess you before God, and the only people who have to be concerned about all that is you and Christ. People are always going to try to condem and tell people what they do wrong, when you are here and when you’re gone.
Josh
I think what you have to keep in mind about though is, in the boook of Romans, Paul addressed the fact that the men went into degrading passion, meaning they turned away from their natural state to unnatural state—this means that homosexuality is unnatural. Although it was shameless, it was shameless because they had no idea but once they experienced what it was, they knew that it was wrong. This does not say that homosexualiy is ok in the eyes of God. Re-read the passage and think very carefully as to what it is interpreting. “Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error…“ means that they received the fact that this act was in fact a penalty (sin, abomination, etc) if they were to go ahead with the act. Acknowledging it is one thing, doing it is another. These men choose to not act on their errors, but instead, acted in the way they were taught by the grace of God. Homosexuality is a sin!
Hey Josh, why did your all powerful god invent homosexuality anyway?
Josh — read it again. This time, with a little dignity.
This is an interesting take on some the Biblical passages used to condemn homosexuality, but while you make a few good arguments about the meanings, you also dismiss more than debunk on others.
While I agree that the laundry list of nonsensical sins in the old testament reveal it to be a fairly worthless guide to modern living, I’m not sure how compelling that argument would actually be to a believer. It’s true many of the old testament rules have essentially been tossed due to interpretations of new testament verses, but as you point out, the homosexuality issue gets another affirmation in the new testament.
Your dismissal of that new testament affirmation rests on a bit of interpretation problems and another that relies on an assumption that only the degredation was the concern as opposed to the acts listed as examples that included homosexual acts. Now on the interpretation, I could see the possibility you’re right due to the unknowns, but your interpretation also seems to add some redundancy to the passages. I’m hesitant to say you’re wrong there, but it certainly doesn’t seem right to me. On the degradation one it just doesn’t even make sense to dismiss the examples of the degradation as if the criticism generally wouldn’t include the specific examples too.
Unfortunately the Bible isn’t as great of a moral guide as many of us wish it to be. Don’t get me wrong, it has many worthwhile lessons and perspectives worth considering, but they should all be considered with a critical mind as opposed to blind obedience. One would like to believe that with everything we’ve discovered from our little neck of the universe contradicting a great deal of what the ‘divinely inspired’ should have probably had a heads up on if they truly were so inspired, that we wouldn’t have so many Biblical literalists out there so reluctant to take the advice of bronze age desert dwellers with a grain of salt (or perhaps a bucket?).
But if one is dealing with people hell-bent on defending the “good name” of a god as notorious for his scientific illiteracy as he is for his genocidal temper tantrums, then convincing them to throw in the towel over his ignorance and oppression of homosexuals is probably very unlikely. Humanity as the abused spouse, endlessly forgiving and excusing the unforgivable behavior… too afraid to leave, because he’s psychologically traumatized you to believe that’s when he’ll really get you!
I say dump the creep.
Ryan
DELETED BY THE EDITOR
Oh come on Ryan, embrace your hidden desires!
Maybe it will help you stop contributing to the overpopulation problem. (BTW, congratulations on having a working penis.)
Oh, and on the concept of sin ...
Keep in mind that taking your concept of laws/political philosophy from 1st century middle-eastern desert nomads is a sure way to get killed on the way into a skyscraper.
josh
I beleive in what the Bible says—that part will never change, so don’t assume it changed or has a different meaning then it did thousands of years ago.
Man in Nineveh
Appeal to the non-aggression axiom alone without accounting for why meat bags are wrong to damage each other needs to be explored. The appeal to not hurting people doesn’t ring true when you consider psychological pain caused to parents, children of those who have kids and experiment, etc.
Jesus is the same God of the old testament. He doesn’t need to repeat himself.We cannot change what God has spoken, whether we like it or not.
Why did he “invent” sin? Probably the same reason he ordains all things to come to pass, to show that man is powerless to save himself and that God alone can bring people from death to life, from darkness to light, so that no one can boast. That’s like asking why He invented any sin.
People do many sinful things willingly, and simply because it is, doesn’t mean it ought to be. There are different kinds of love, but nowhere does the biblical God approve of those behaviors. Assertion of such is silly. Just ditch the God of revelation and go your way. Hitchens would take you guys more seriously, I imagine.
worsexegesisever
“But marriage is something much deeper and more profound than reproduction. Marriage is about commitment and love, not having children. So God can join two people in marriage no matter what their gender is. And we should not stand in the way of the good that God would do.“
Hate to break you the news but Marriage is not just about “commitment and love”. True, commitment and love do play a role in marriage, but marriage is a covenant that only God can bound two (one male and one female) together. Oh, I’m sure marriage is also about children as well. I thought you read your Bible? God said, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it.“ Isn’t that a clear command to us? Marriage is a metaphor of the Trinity. God does NOT bless nor will he join two same-sex gender when it comes to marriage. What kind of “good” do you see in same-sex marriage? All I see is sin and wrath. Same-sex marriage clearly violates the scripture when it comes to marriage. Homosexuality is a form of IDOL worship. What kind? Worship of your sexuality. Nice try though. Your form of exegesis is a great example for those who want to defend same-sex marriage.
worsexegesisever
Oh, I forgot to say something. “God loves all of us and just as I am” is a total lie. I can find Scriptures to support that God hates the wicked and we’re like an abomination to His eyes. In the Old Testament:
Psalm 5:4-6
Leviticus 20:23
Leviticus 26:14-30
Deuteronomy 18:12
Deuteronomy 25:16
Deuteronomy 28:62-63
Deuteronomy 32:16-20
Psalm 2:4-9
Psalm 7:11-13
Psalm 10:3
Psalm 11:5-7
Psalm 50:22
Psalm 78:57-63
Psalm 106:40
Proverbs 3:32-33
Proverbs 6:16-19
Proverbs 16:5
Proverbs 17:5
Proverbs 22:14
Isaiah 63:10
Jeremiah 17:5
Hosea 9:15
Zephaniah 3:15
Malachi 1:3-4
If God does not change, then in the New Testament He is the same:
Matthew 7:13-23
Matthew 10:28
Romans 9:13
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Galatians 5:19-21
Ephesians 5:3-6
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9
Hebrews 10:30-31
James 2:13
James 4:4
2 Peter 2:4-22
Jude 1:6-7
You know, God also prefers drunken incest and heterosexual rape to homosexual rape according to Genesis 19. Since you have such a firm grasp on this whole Bible thing, why don’t you explain that one to your daughter at story time tonight?
john
or you could just become a Buddhist and be done with all this nonsense. love and let love.
While discussing religion is always interesting (and I sincerely mean that; excellent article, Ryan), it has no authority when it comes to our laws. Or, at least it shouldn’t.
What God thinks or what the Bible says regarding civil rights in America is irrelevant. Or, at least, it should be.
We are not a nation of Judeo-Christian laws. Our laws, our constitution, our courts are secular. The problem is that Average American can’t grasp this (one of the many reasons for this—I think—is the lack of Civics education in high schools). Every two years, Average American brings his/her religious baggage into the voting booth and inflicts it on everyone else, happily and thoughtlessly and unconstitutionally conjoining church and state. This is why we end up having discussions in which hateful, bigoted, grammatically incorrect, chimp-like statements like, “All I see is sin and wrath” are made.
As long as the majority of citizens in this country see nothing wrong with voting their religious beliefs, we’ll never really have separation of church and state. And this is why voting for another citizen’s civil rights should never be placed in the hands of the people.
But, I’m getting off-topic . . . religion doesn’t belong in this discussion because this isn’t about religion; it’s about civil rights, which have fuck all to do with anyone’s version of God.
JP
Building on what Tracy said, our governmental framework is based on the original great republics of Rome and Greece. As we all know, those guys were a horny bunch of pervs, and they seemed to do ok for themselves (for several hundred years, anyway). The Bible was written by man, and each book is reflective of the time and political climate in which it was written. What may have made sense back in the day just might not be true today. Jesus’ main teaching was to love one another… if you aren’t willing to do that, then you’re simply wasting your time with everything else.
Yesterday I saw this bumper sticker:
CATHOLIC VOTERS
Vote Pro-Life
... which is basically a threat. “Allow me to impose my religion on you OR I WILL!“
I thought about writing a column, but then I’ve already written that column a few times.
Most Recent Opinion Comments
Curtis Orchard is always good for an hour or three, especially if you have rugrats.
eugh….I remember that sex ed class and i’m pretty sure I know the teacher you’re referring to. that place was hell.
Love the story about sex ed at the middle school. That’s what I do every day for my job—it’s so exciting to see students engaged in material many adults and parents assume is above their understanding or maturity level. Thanks for sharing! Oh, and if you…
“Rag Doll” by Aerosmith is a great accompanying song when you are throwing a tennis ball onto the floor to bother the people below you.
http://www.news-gazette.com/news/agriculture/2010-09-01/south-farms-taking-aim-birds-noise.html If U of I did any research into repelling birds, they would use a very silent but effective high output LASER instead of adding noise pollution to the already olfactory polluted area http://www.allpestco.com/2009/06/laser-bird-deterrent-or-laser-gun-vs-birds/
“I have some reading to catch up on, poolside.“ Classic.
What sticks in my neck is that most noise (unwanted sound) is a violation of the law. So why is it often so difficult to get the authorities to address the issue? Why are the anti-social elements so protected? These lowlife induviduals now seem to have the…
Spirit echoes - http://www.iainandjane.com/work/silentsound/index.shtml
People are entitled to peace and quiet. That gift has been lost and once lost is hard to regain. Anti-noise activitists fight for everyone’s right to have peace and quiet. Thanks to those that fight for our right to peace and quiet.
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Illinois has simply had no luck at all in these Mizzou games. None. I think maybe we’re do for a couple of bounces to go our way. If we get one or two (or sever or eight) breaks, I think it’s a win.
Jason, Savoy could easily join the CPL tax district, which is probably closer to most Savoy residents than the Tolono library is. But my impression is that Savoy residents as a whole don’t want to pay the cost of the CPL (Tolono’s library taxes are cheaper), even…
Sorry, but I am lagging behind on updates to the map. Also, some construction projects were delayed from their original start date. On a more positive note, I am putting together a map of haunted houses in Central Illinois. I have a few plotted already, and I…
I’ve never gotten the privilege of all the services CPL cardholders get. I just want to be able to go out of my way to drive to the CPL to check out books, pay fines, maybe buy some coffee, and enjoy the library. None of those activities…
These days, there is more to using a library than checking out books. At one time, paying into the Lincoln Trails system probably would cover the expenses incurred by other libraries in the system. Now, with Internet, videos, coffee shops, wireless Internet hubs, etc., I suspect the…
(speaking as a Savoy resident) By paying taxes to support a member of the LTLS, we are paying our “fair share” to use any LTLS library—Tolono, Champaign, Urbana, etc. This is how library systems work. The 6% of CPL’s circulation represented by Tolono users is NOT significant…
I read Timbo’s argument. I think the key word is “speculating.“
I would be interested to hear more about the “word on the street”—how are individual hauling companies fulfilling their promise to recycle?
Timbo makes a smart, sound argument. Reread it.
I joined on 09-09-09 after living here over a year, and having to listen to my dad tell me how his best friend is, like, #27 or something crazy like that, and how said friend never lived further than 50 feet from the Illini Inn while going…
And, I might add, no one is being prevented from using the Champaign library. They are just being asked to pay their fair share if they are going to use it as their primary library.
The equation is pretty simple here. If you want social services, then pay the taxes required to run those social services. These things only work if everyone puts in their fair share. As a heavy user of the Champaign Library, I say bravo to this new policy.
Curtis Orchard is always good for an hour or three, especially if you have rugrats.
What is the increased marginal cost of serving a resident of Savoy or Mahomet? I suspect negligible. What is the increased revenue to be realized by this new policy? I suspect very little. Aside from these financial aspects, what are the most probable results from this new…
Looks like you are also all members of the killer sideburns club.
Thanks for the article, Ben. I was not familiar with this band until now and even though I won’t be able to attend the show on Friday they are now on my radar. A *good* jam band is hard to find, and these folks appear to fill…
Nice article, love the Dead quote in the beginning. If they can get down here to Central FL I’ll definitely be heading out to the show. Some of my friends have finally stopped wincing when I say “jam band.“ I’ve now tried my best at more descriptive…
@Annie: Yeah, my bad. That was the best part! Drinking + memory exercises = fun @Rob: According to Ask the English Teacher, “My dictionary says ‘drunk’ is an archaic past tense of ‘drink.‘“ We’re all about the new grammar around here.
Katie, have the residents of Savoy and Tolono thought about having their taxes raised a little to help their public library expand? That’s a possibility for them. And then everybody wins.
good call on that Herring recording, Josh. Love that version of Exit Music….here’s a clip of the Cinco de Mayo show (from about six months prior). As I recall, this Shakedown went on for roughly a half hour, while getting into the Trampled Underfoot jam in the…
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Sorry, but I am lagging behind on updates to the map. Also, some construction projects were delayed from their original start date. On a more positive note, I am putting together a map of haunted houses in Central Illinois. I have a few plotted already, and I…